In a thought-provoking episode of The Ezra Klein Show, New York Times columnist Ezra Klein sits down with writer Jia Tolentino for a deep dive into some of the most fundamental topics facing modern parents today: children, the search for meaning, the influence of media, and the transformative power of psychedelics. Drawing from personal experiences, cultural insights, and parenthood, this conversation uncovers the often conflicting emotions and challenges that come with raising children in a hyper-connected, media-saturated world.

Children and Meaning: The Psychedelic Connection

Jia Tolentino, a well-known writer for The New Yorker and author of Trick Mirror, begins the conversation by sharing her thoughts on why she decided to have children. Reflecting on the idea, she makes a surprising comparison between the decision to become a parent and her experiences with psychedelics. For Tolentino, both experiences held the allure of something transformative, mysterious, and full of boundary-dissolving pleasure. She describes how becoming a parent, like taking psychedelics, seemed overwhelming at first but ultimately was driven by the anticipation of fun, even if that fun was intense and complicated.

What really resonated with her was the idea that parenthood, much like psychedelics, invites both extreme challenge and deep, destabilizing joy. It pushes individuals to their limits in ways that are unpredictable and sometimes frightening but ultimately rewarding. Tolentino emphasizes that the pursuit of meaning, in her view, is deeply intertwined with the pursuit of pleasure — not necessarily the hedonistic type, but the kind that expands one’s understanding of life and the world.

Klein, on the other hand, offers a slightly different perspective, suggesting that his decision to become a parent was more about the desire for meaning rather than pleasure. For him, parenting is about the fundamental human drive to create and nurture life, to participate in something bigger than oneself — a profound source of meaning.

The Paradox of Parenting: Sacred and Mundane

A striking theme in the interview is the tension between the sacredness of parenting and the mundane realities it entails. Tolentino eloquently describes the act of caring for her child as “holy,” especially when considering the everyday tasks such as wiping a child’s face or cleaning up after them. These seemingly insignificant and repetitive acts, in her view, hold a sacred dimension because they involve total submission to another’s needs — a surrender to the bodily and emotional demands of another human being.

However, parenting isn’t always transcendence wrapped in mundane tasks. Both Tolentino and Klein admit to grappling with boredom, fatigue, and the constant temptation to distract themselves, often through their phones. Tolentino, who has a young daughter, reflects on how, at times, she finds herself wishing the day away, wanting everyone to go to sleep, so she can have a moment to herself. These moments of exhaustion lead her to question whether she is “abrogating the whole purpose of being alive.”

Both writers explore the broader existential paradox that while parenthood offers opportunities for deep connection and meaning, it is also filled with the endless, and sometimes frustrating, tasks of caregiving. They find themselves caught between feeling the need to be fully present in these sacred moments and, at the same time, craving the mindless escape that technology offers.

The Role of Media: CoComelon and the Attention Economy

The conversation shifts to the influence of media on both children and parents. Specifically, they discuss CoComelon, a wildly popular children’s show on YouTube that has taken the toddler world by storm. Tolentino’s deep dive into CoComelon as a cultural phenomenon reflects a broader concern about how children’s media is evolving in the age of the attention economy.

For Tolentino, CoComelon represents a new paradigm where children’s entertainment is no longer purely about enjoyment or education. Instead, it’s about raw attentional capture — the ability to hold a child’s focus for extended periods. Klein echoes this concern, pointing out that many parents, including himself, often feel conflicted about using shows like CoComelon to keep their children entertained. On one hand, it provides much-needed relief to busy parents. On the other hand, the show’s hypnotic effect on children can feel disturbing, as it seems to fully consume their attention in a way that leaves them vacant.

What makes CoComelon different from other children’s programming, like Sesame Street or Bluey, is that it lacks the elements of delight that typically make children’s shows enjoyable for parents as well. While shows like Sesame Street manage to entertain both children and adults, CoComelon is a source of irritation for many parents, who see it as a mindless attention-grabber.

This leads to a larger conversation about the role of screens in children’s lives and how parents should navigate this modern landscape. Tolentino shares her own mixed feelings about screen time for her daughter, admitting that while she tries not to be too anxious about it, she worries that screens are foreclosing other, more enriching experiences for children. The anxiety around screen time, Tolentino suggests, often stems from parents’ own struggles with digital addiction. We use our phones to escape the present moment, and in doing so, we pass this habit on to our children.